Which Path: Equality or Inequality?

In this Dialogue Example, Jeremy Gorr shares the strategy he uses in many of his conversations to help people see more clearly the problems with arguments that divide the human community based on functional abilities.

Would you like to join us for an upcoming outreach event? Go to jfaweb.org/register to sign up for an upcoming event or to let us know you’re interested in participating when we’re nearby. Or, go to jfaweb.org/love3 to register for upcoming online courses. Thank you for partnering with JFA through financial support and prayer as we seek to reach more people.

-Steve Wagner, Executive Director

On a recent visit to the University of Wyoming I had a conversation with “Grace.” We established early on that the unborn is biologically human, but Grace then pointed to the differences between the unborn and the rest of us.

Grace: I don’t consider abortion killing. You’re stopping a heartbeat so it’s technically killing, but consciousness and awareness is what matters for me.

Jeremy: Do you think human rights and value are grounded in the fact that we are human? Or do you think human value comes from the capabilities humans have?

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Background: Jeremy interacts with a student at the University of Wyoming in Laramie in April 2025.

Foreground: JFA’s Art of Life Exhibit signs encourage students to reflect.

Grace: You’re asking if you and I should be compared based on our capabilities? I would say no. After the fetus is born it should not be judged by its capabilities, but before viability I think it’s different.

Jeremy: Do you see how judging any humans, even young ones, based on their capabilities destroys the whole basis for equality? Treating humans before viability differently is the definition of inequality because they are equally human.

Grace: I see what you’re saying.

Jeremy: I look back at history and see that we’ve killed tens of millions of humans because they were different in some way. Each one of those killings was an atrocity, right?

Grace: Right.

Jeremy: I think we’ve learned throughout history that there’s no good reason to kill unwanted humans. Can you think of any?

Grace: No. When you say “unwanted” I think I see where you’re going. The fetuses that are aborted are obviously unwanted.

Jeremy: They are different in some ways to you and me, right?

Grace: Yes.

““We should strive towards equality. On the path of equality our differences don’t matter, and that’s why we can’t exclude the unborn because of their differences. That’s antithetical to equality.””

— Jeremy Gorr

Jeremy: What I think we’ve learned throughout history is that there are only two paths we can follow – the path of equality or the path of inequality. I think we both want equality, right?

Grace: I think everybody wants equality, but I don’t think that’s completely achievable for any society.

Jeremy: I agree, but we try. We should strive towards equality. On the path of equality our differences don’t matter, and that’s why we can’t exclude the unborn because of their differences. That’s antithetical to equality.

Grace: I guess, but we’re always fighting inequality. The idea of equality is really nice, but everybody’s different opinions will forever keep us from equality.

Jeremy: Then let’s stand against inequality together. We can start by treating all humans equally under the law, and protecting all our lives, even those young humans in the womb. Wouldn’t that be a start?

On this trip we conducted outreach for the first time at the University of Wyoming. See also Kaitlyn’s reflection here, and see more spring 2025 photos here.

Grace: I don’t know. It’s a super important conversation to have. It was really good to talk to you about this.

Grace then had to leave because her ride home arrived. I had given her a lot to think about. While she didn’t tell me in that moment that her mind had changed, I trust that God is still at work. I pray the questions I asked will stay with her, and that God will use those questions to gently guide her toward the truth because we can build a world where every life – born and unborn – is valued equally.

"You're Changing My Thoughts."

Outreach at UCLA, May 2025

Many people who say they are against abortion believe it should be legal in the case of sexual assault or if the child won’t live long outside the womb due to an illness or fetal deformity. When I was at UCLA in May, I spoke to “Jake,” a Christian who held this perspective on abortion.

Our conversation went something like this:

Talking to “Jake” at UCLA

Rebekah: I think abortion in the case of rape is a really difficult topic. I understand emotionally why people want to be pro-choice in this case. If a woman feels like abortion will help her heal, it’s hard to tell her she can’t access it. You mentioned earlier that you are against abortion in most other cases. Why are you against abortion in general?

Jake: I’m against it because it kills a human being.

Rebekah: I am too. If you agree the unborn are human beings made in the image of God, and if there is a human being involved in both a consensual pregnancy and a pregnancy that resulted from rape, how does your faith inform your view on that?

He was quiet for a moment as he thought about this question. When I felt like it would be helpful to share more, I continued:

Rebekah: If we believe the unborn are human beings made in the image of God from conception, then they should be protected no matter how they came into existence. I understand that this is really hard emotionally though. Here’s something that might help. Imagine I show you two images of an ultrasound, and I ask you which child was conceived in rape? You wouldn’t be able to tell. Both are human even though one came into existence through something that was really awful.

Jake: I think you’re changing my thoughts on this.

I then asked him if he thought abortion should be allowed in the case of fetal deformity since that had come up earlier. He said yes.

Rebekah: That’s also really hard. If I got pregnant and found that my baby was not going to live very long, I think that would emotionally wreck me. I think it would help to think about it this way: Imagine that I am pregnant, and my child has some illness or deformity that makes it unlikely that she will live past a year, but I don’t find out about this until my baby is born. Do you think I should be able to kill my child after she’s born because she won’t live very long?

Jake was quiet again. I could tell he was really thinking. Then he said:

Jake: Yes, I agree you cannot kill your child after she’s born.

Rebekah: So if that human in the womb is equally human to the born child, then we should protect both of them. It makes sense that these are really hard cases emotionally. As Christians, we know that human beings are made in the image of God so our value stays constant despite the pain and suffering we experience.

Jake: Thank you for this conversation. You’re changing my thoughts on this, but I do need to think about it more.

In nearly every conversation I have about abortion, I confront the question of whether abortion should be legal in these hard situations. They don’t typically end with someone telling me they are changing their thoughts on the issue, and that makes sense because these questions can hold so much pain and trauma for some people.

When I was at the University of Nebraska in Kearney in early May, I talked to a student who was against abortion in general because he believed it killed a valuable human, but he thought there should be an exception in the case of rape. I asked him, “Since you are generally opposed to abortion because you think it kills a human being, how do you reconcile that view with allowing someone to kill a human in the case of rape?” He told me it was personal. He has a childhood friend who experienced assault and got pregnant as a result. She chose to keep her child. He told me he can see the pain in her eyes when she looks at her child.

Most of my conversations about this aspect of the abortion issue are like the one with the Nebraska student in that they bring up some of the most traumatic things a person can experience. Women who have experienced assault matter. Women who are pregnant and get a fatal diagnosis for their child matter. While we find common ground and sympathize with people in these situations, we must also help them widen their circle of compassion and concern to include the unborn child who is too often forgotten and ignored in these situations. We need to love them and protect them as well.

“I’ve Never Heard that Perspective Before.”

Impact Report, July 2025

In this Impact Report, Kaitlyn Donihue shares a conversation she had in April at our first-ever outreach on the University of Wyoming campus. Kaitlyn’s conversation with “Ian” illustrates what’s typical of many pro-choice people we encounter, that they are open-minded and ready to think about the case against abortion, especially if it is clearly articulated. This is why we’re eager for every Christian to participate in JFA’s “Seat Work and Feet Work” training program. We could change more minds if more of us were trained to do what Kaitlyn made look effortless here: ask good questions and give reasons that are easy to understand. Thanks for partnering with us to help us bring this training to hundreds more in 2025!

-Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Many of us hear hostile and extreme pro-choice perspectives in the media and assume that all pro-choice people are equally hostile and extreme. In reality, many pro-choice people are not hostile or extreme at all. Many are open to conversations. Many are even persuadable. As I found in one conversation recently, many have never heard a clear, reasonable articulation of the pro-life view, and if they did hear it, they might be willing to rethink their own position.

In April our team was at the University of Wyoming talking to students. It was cold and windy, but we still had many wonderful conversations. I was standing by one of our signs that shows images of unborn children at different stages of development when “Ian” walked up. I struck up a conversation with him, and it went something like the following:

Kaitlyn (right) interacts with a student during JFA’s Univ. of Wyoming outreach.

Kaitlyn: Do you have thoughts on this issue?

Ian: Yeah, everybody does.

Kaitlyn: That’s so true. What are your thoughts?

Ian: I don’t think the government should have a say in healthcare.

Kaitlyn: I’m definitely hearing you. Healthcare is really important, and our rights to get the healthcare we need are important. Do you think abortion should be legal for all nine months of pregnancy or just a window of time?

Ian: It’s really complicated, and there’s a lot more than just timing to consider.

Kaitlyn: I agree that it’s complicated. It’s a tough issue for sure.

Ian: Yeah.

Kaitlyn: Do you think the unborn is a human being at any point in pregnancy?

Ian: I don’t know. I haven’t really looked into the science.

Kristine (left) creates dialogue at JFA’s Univ. of Wyoming outreach.

Kaitlyn: Would you be open if I share my understanding of what biology teaches?

Ian: Sure, go ahead.

During JFA’s Wyoming seminar, Jeremy (left) and Kaitlyn (center) illustrated with a dramatic dialogue the tool Kristine (right) was teaching.

““If the unborn are human beings, do you think we should protect them?””

— Kaitlyn Donihue

Kaitlyn: According to biology, there are three characteristics of living things. Living things grow through cellular reproduction, metabolize food for energy, and respond to stimuli. We know something is alive if it is doing all of those things. The unborn is doing all of those things at every stage of development so we know they are alive. We also know they are human because they have human DNA. As soon as sperm and egg come together, both cease to exist and a new genetically distinct human organism comes into existence. That human organism is different from us in the same way an infant is different from us. An infant is less developed than you and me but we would never say she is less human. In the same way, the unborn are less developed, but according to embryologists they are full human organisms just like you and me. What are your thoughts on that?

Ian: I’ve never really heard that perspective before. That’s interesting.

Kaitlyn: If the unborn are human beings, do you think we should protect them?

Ian: Yeah, I believe every human has value and deserves protection. I’ve just never looked into the biology before.

Our staff and volunteers enjoyed creating numerous conversations at the University of Wyoming.

We talked a little more before Ian had to leave, but his comment that he had never heard the pro-life perspective laid out that way was a good reminder. As pro-life people, its easy to assume that people who reject our perspective at least understand it. Many reject it, however, because they don’t understand it. When we take the time to share it with them, they might be willing to think about it and even one day embrace it themselves. This is true of the abortion issue and the gospel. This is why conversations are so important and often so life-changing.

Thank you for supporting our work and helping to make these kinds of conversations possible!

"This Conversation Has Opened My Eyes."

Impact Report May 2025

Our trainers are working in the local areas where they live to create more training events, including interactive workshops (Seat Work) and outreach events (Feet Work). In this Impact Report, Andrea Thenhaus explains some of her experience getting events planned with Alora Tunstill in their local area of Northwest Arkansas, and Andrea describes in vivid detail a conversation that was made possible through those events. In addition, Andrea shares a reflection (blue box, below) from one of the young women who volunteered at the campus outreach events. Thank you for partnering with us through financial gifts and prayers. -Steve Wagner, Executive Director

I moved to Arkansas three years ago. Ever since then, I have been wanting to organize a Justice For All outreach event at the University of Arkansas (U of A) to start conversations. I was told that it would be challenging for an outside organization like JFA to set up outreach tools in a high-traffic area of campus.

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Lauren (pictured second from right) and Alora Tunstill (center) in conversation at the University of Arkansas

My friend Alora started an internship with JFA last August. Together, with prayer and determination, we made it our mission to figure out how to get on the U of A campus. After a whirlwind trip all over the university and a series of referrals from students and other clubs, we were sent to the Event Services Office. They helped us understand the process to reserve a space. Our first outreach took place on February 4 and 6! Then on April 15-16, we went back to the U of A, and my colleagues Jon Wagner and Kristina Massa, along with some friends of ours, joined us for outreach. (See Lauren’s reflection below.) We are so grateful for their willingness to join us.

“It’s been such an honor to visit campus with Andrea and the JFA team these past few times! I had no previous experience with pro-life outreach, but it turned out to be an amazing experience. It was so neat to see God use us, give us the words to say, and just overall bless our time of outreach. Students appreciated how peaceful and “non-combative” pro-life conversations can be as we helped them contemplate their views. JFA outreach has helped me understand the pro-choice mind and has proved to be such a wonderful avenue to “open your mouth for the speechless, In the cause of all who are appointed to die.” (Proverbs 31:8) – Lauren”

— Lauren's Reflection

Here’s my memory of one conversation that happened during our February event:

A student I’ll call “Mark” walked up shortly after we had finished setting up our poll table. The poll asked the question, “Should abortion be legal?” We had “Yes” and “No” signs with notebooks for the students to weigh in and express their views.

When Mark finished signing “Yes” to the poll question, I asked him if he had time to share his thoughts. Mark started by saying that he thought abortion should be legal. He was in the military where many of his female colleagues had experienced assault.

Andrea: Wow, that is terrible. Rape is a horrible crime, and no woman should have to go through that.

After talking about his time in the military, the issue of rape, and other related topics, we began to discuss the science related to when human life begins.

Andrea: If the unborn is growing, would you agree it is alive?

Mark: Yes, I would agree with that.

Andrea: If the unborn has human parents, would you agree it is a human being?

Mark: Yes, I agree with that as well.

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Andrea (green jacket) in conversation at the University of Arkansas

Andrea: We can know the unborn is a living human being. Obviously, it takes time for the unborn to grow and develop, but science shows that life starts at conception. The development of the unborn is similar to a polaroid photo. Are you familiar with polaroid cameras?

Mark: Yes.

Andrea: After I take the picture, it takes time for the film to develop. However, as soon as I take a picture, that image has been captured. I just need to wait for it to develop in order to see it. From conception the unborn is a whole, living human organism. The unborn grows and develops [but it’s the same organism through all those changes]. Does that make sense? What are your thoughts on that?

Mark: Wow, I agree with what you are saying. This makes sense.

As we talked, I was able to show him images of abortion from the JFA brochure (jfaweb.org/brochure). After giving him a minute to look at the images, I could tell that they were having an impact on him.

Mark: Wow, this is terrible.

Andrea: I agree. After seeing these images, would you say that abortion is a medical procedure? Or does abortion take a human life?

Mark: Abortion is definitely taking a life.

Andrea: I agree. It comes down to whether or not the unborn is a human being. If the unborn are not human beings, then it does not matter if women get abortions. If the unborn are human beings, abortion is taking a life. We talked earlier about life starting at conception, so I agree with you that abortion is taking a human life.

Mark: I have had a lot of training on various things in my life, but I have never learned what you just taught me. Thank you so much for being out here today. I have learned so much, and this conversation has opened my eyes.

As I reflect back on outreach opportunities God has given us here in Arkansas, I am reminded of the power of prayer and of God’s faithfulness. At first it felt challenging to get an event confirmed at the U of A, but God led us each step of the way. I am thankful for the friends God sent to volunteer with us. I am also grateful for the opportunity to talk to Mark and witness the Lord working in his heart and mind. Please pray for us as we plan to do more outreach here in Arkansas.

-Andrea Thenhaus for the JFA Team

Joseph Changes His Mind

Impact Report, January 2025

By Andrea Thenhaus

Over the past few months I’ve reminded you that just getting people to “stop and think” is a big part of what’s needed in order to initiate cultural change. (See this Oct. 2024 post and this Nov. 2024 post.) The moments people spend with our trainers and volunteers during campus outreach can be transformative. In this Impact Report, JFA trainer Andrea Thenhaus gives an example from a recent outreach event in California. (This post updates the original post from Nov. 20, 2024) Many of you responded to our appeals for year-end funding during the past two months. Thank you! It’s a privilege to partner with you to train followers of Christ to change hearts and minds on abortion. - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Our team had the opportunity to engage with students on the issue of abortion at California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) and MiraCosta College in California in October 2024. At CSUSM, we were getting ready to take down for the day when two international students walked up to our poll table, and I engaged them in conversation. I will refer to the student who did most of the talking as “Joseph”.

Andrea: Do you think abortion should be legal for all nine months of pregnancy or only for a certain window of time?

Joseph: Oh, I don’t think it should be legal for all nine months.

Andrea: Ok. I have our brochure here with images of the unborn at different stages of development (shown right). Where would you draw the line?

Joseph: I think abortion should be legal until the first trimester.

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Andrea (center in hat) interacts with a student at the JFA outreach event at CSUSM in October 2024.

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Above, Jon, Alora, and Andrea interact with students at JFA’s MiraCosta Outreach in October.

After talking through the legality and the circumstances under which these students thought abortion should be legal, I asked them when they thought life begins biologically speaking.

Joseph: I am not sure. I am not a physician so it’s hard to say.

Andrea: No problem. Obviously I’m not a doctor either, but do you mind if I share with you my understanding of the basic biology?

Joseph: Yes, totally.

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Andrea shared pages 4-5 of our brochure with Joseph. Get your own copy at jfaweb.org/brochure.

Andrea: If the unborn is growing, would you agree it is alive?

Joseph: Yes, I would agree with that.

Andrea: If the unborn has human parents, would you agree it is human?

Joseph: Yes.

Andrea: Right. Living things reproduce after their own kind. Dogs produce dogs and cats produce cats, so it would make sense to say that humans produce human offspring. At conception, the unborn has a complete set of DNA. It just needs time to grow and develop. Are you familiar with Polaroid cameras?

Joseph: Yes.

Andrea: The development of the unborn is similar to a polaroid photo. After I take a picture, it takes time for the film to develop. However, as soon as I take a picture, that image has been captured. I just need to wait for it to develop in order to see it. From conception the unborn is a whole, living human organism. The unborn just needs time to grow and develop [for you to be able to see it]. Does that make sense? What are your thoughts on that?

Joseph: Wow. Honestly that makes so much sense, and this is making me change my mind on abortion.

Our conversation continued, and we talked about the realities of abortion. The students agreed that the process of abortion is horrible.

Outreach at Wayne State College, September 2024

Before Joseph and his friend left, I thanked them for taking the time to have a conversation. They thanked me and expressed again how our conversation had changed their minds. They now understand that the unborn is a living human being and that abortion is taking a life.

It was amazing to see God at work in these students’ lives. Students often do not think the unborn is a human being. Once they understand what science teaches about the beginning of human life, some students are more likely to realize the tragedy of abortion. I am thankful that Joseph and his friend were willing to have a conversation and that they were open to the truth.

“The development of the unborn is similar to a Polaroid photo...As soon as I take a picture, that image has been captured…
From conception the unborn is a whole, living human organism. The unborn just needs time to grow and develop [for you to be able to see it].”

Setting Starfish Free

Note: Catherine Wurts served as a JFA Trainer from 2009 until 2017. In this “Classic Reprint” of her June 2014 letter, “Setting Starfish Free,” Catherine tells one of my favorite JFA stories. In the story of “Anthony,” Catherine both makes a persuasive case for the value of unborn children and seeks to help a young man realize his own worth as “one loved by God.” She also illustrates the heartbeat of the JFA community, seeking whenever possible to open a door to deeper reflection on spiritual things, in hopes that starfish will by the Holy Spirit allow our conversations to nudge them to “dive in.” When you support JFA, you support this heartbeat on the campuses and in the churches where we train and conduct outreach across the country. Thank you for considering a special gift to JFA this month to help us train more Christians to “make a difference for even one.” - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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Catherine (right) interacts with a student at the University of Georgia (UGA) in March 2014.

My colleague, John Michener (bottom photo, center), often illustrates JFA’s mission by referencing the story of The Star Thrower, by Loren Eisley:

One day a man was walking along the beach when he noticed a boy picking something up and gently throwing it into the ocean. Approaching the boy, he asked, “What are you doing?” The youth replied, “Throwing starfish back into the ocean. The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don’t throw them back, they’ll die.”

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John Michener (blue tie-dye) engages Arizona State University (ASU) students in dialogue in Feb. 2014. John served as a JFA trainer from 2010 until 2014 and now directs Oklahomans United for Life: www.oklahomansunitedforlife.org.

“Son,” the man said, “don’t you realize there are miles of beach and hundreds of starfish? You can’t make a difference!” At this, the boy bent down, picked up another starfish, and threw it back into the ocean. As it met the water, he said, “I made a difference for that one.”

Who are our “starfish”? They’re the thousands of students streaming by our university Exhibit outreaches on their way to class. Many of them have had or are going to have abortions. Many others are pro-life Christians who are either silent or unloving when the topic of abortion comes up. Many, many of them are blind to the inherent dignity of the unborn – and of born people – because they have no idea how valued and loved they, themselves, are by their Creator. One significant difference between us and the boy on the beach, however, is that our “starfish” have free will. We can take them to the ocean, but they have to choose whether or not to dive in. [Editor’s note: We are not intending here to weigh in on the precise nature and interrelation of human choices and divine providence.]

Meet Anthony (name changed), a “starfish” at the University of Georgia, Athens (UGA). I met Anthony on a very rainy day in front of our Draw the Line kiosk on his campus last fall. He is a pre-med student from Egypt and has only been in the U.S. for a short time. We spoke for a while about abortion – he considered himself generally pro-life but thought abortion should be allowed in cases of rape and other difficult circumstances. We established a lot of common ground about needing to be compassionate to women and to provide resources for them. Also, he said he thought the logical argument I laid out for why abortion is not justified, even in these tough cases, was consistent and probably true.

Then he asked me, “Are you religious?”

“Yes. Why do you ask?”

He smiled as though he’d “got” me. “It seems like everyone I’ve met who’s pro-life is religious.”

“Well, I know of atheists who are pro-life,” I said, “which makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it, if the unborn is a human being? If we think about it, does a person have to be religious to recognize that murder, rape, and child abuse are wrong? The question is, ‘Is abortion a similar injustice against a human being?’ There are atheists who would say that it is.” *

Anthony agreed this made logical sense. He went on to explain that he’d been raised in an Orthodox Christian home in Egypt, but when he came to the States he put all of that behind him. He had started to think that morals are relative and that perhaps God doesn’t exist.

We talked for a while, him sharing some of his disillusionment with Christians, and me sharing that I’d had similar doubts and concerns when I was in college. I told him I admired him for asking the tough questions he was asking. Then I challenged him to look more deeply into the claims that Christianity makes before rejecting it – and before rejecting Christ. I suggested he begin by reading C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. He said he would, but I thought, “How many times have I intended to read something and never gotten to it?” Then Anthony left for class. I guessed he wouldn’t read the book, and felt sure I wouldn’t see him again.

Come March of this year, I found myself in the same quad by the student center at UGA standing in front of the JFA Exhibit. I was talking with another student who was sharing very similar things with me to what Anthony had shared, but this student was decidedly more antagonistic, sarcastic, and unwilling to dialogue. All of a sudden, I noticed Anthony standing next to us, listening in! He smiled and when the other student left, Anthony said he’d come to tell me that he’d read Mere Christianity and talked a lot with his uncle. As a result, he had decided to come back to his Christian faith.

He’s started attending an Orthodox church in town and doing some service projects with them. He told me, with a huge smile on his face, “When I met you, I was obsessing about these questions about life and about God. When I would eat my food, I would be thinking, ‘Is there a God?’ Everywhere I went I was worrying over it. But I’m not obsessing anymore! I am happy!” St. Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, wrote, “For freedom Christ set us free, so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.” Anthony, like the little starfish, had been set free. Praise God. Please pray for him as he continues on his journey with the Lord.

- Catherine Wurts, June 2014

* For example, Secular Pro-Life (SPL) is both strongly pro-life and explicitly atheistic. See JFA’s blog post featuring a list of links to SPL posts every pro-life advocate should read: www.jfaweb.org/secular-pro-life.

Aha Moments for Henry

Impact Report, May 2024

In this Impact Report, we feature a reflection from JFA trainer Andrea Thenhaus along with pictures of JFA trainers and volunteers at recent outreach events.  In early April, Andrea had a memorable conversation with Henry at Grand Valley State University near Grand Rapids, Michigan.  Although many people with whom we interact on campus don’t reveal their inner thought processes, Henry was kind enough to give Andrea a glimpse of how the conversation was changing him.  Aha moments are a joy to witness, but whatever the results seem on the surface, we thank God for helping us speak for those who cannot speak for themselves (Proverbs 31:8).  We thank God for you and for your partnership as we seek to be faithful in each conversation.

-Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Andrea (center) and volunteer Kalen (left) at Adams State University in Colorado (April)

Our team was nearing the end of our second day of outreach at Grand Valley State University. While the team started taking everything down, I remained available for conversations.

About this time, a student I’ll call “Henry” walked by our exhibit. I asked him if he had time to share his thoughts on the issue of abortion.

Henry replied that he was on his way to class and could not talk. Then a minute later, he turned around and said, “Actually, I have a few minutes to talk.” Our conversation went something like this:

Andrea: Okay, awesome. Do you think abortion should be legal or illegal?

Henry: I think it should be legal mainly for cases like rape, health of the baby, and life of the mother.

Andrea: Those are all hard cases for sure. Rape is such a horrific thing. Even if the woman does not get pregnant, it is still a traumatic experience. Then if the woman gets pregnant, things get even more complicated.

Kaitlyn (sitting), Kristina (center), and Seth (right) at University of Cincinnati (March)

Rather than jumping right into challenging Henry on his viewpoint, I was taking the time to slow down and show compassion for people who have been raped. Pro-choice and pro-life people all agree that rape is horrific, and it is helpful to find that common ground in our conversations. After spending a few minutes meeting the relational challenge inherent in discussing the topic of rape by acknowledging how difficult that situation is, I went on to intellectually respond to the questions he raised.

Andrea: For these specific circumstances that you mentioned, do you think abortions should be legal for all nine months of pregnancy or for a certain period of time?

Henry: Definitely a certain period of time. I believe the unborn are living human beings, so abortion should be legal for only the first trimester.

Andrea: Okay. Do you know anyone who has been affected by rape?

Henry: No, I do not. I just know it happens.

Andrea: Yeah, for sure. Here’s one way I look at it. Imagine there are two women who have been violated through rape. Both women have gotten pregnant. One of the women has given birth to her son. He is two months old now. The other woman is two months pregnant. If I asked you if both women have the right to kill their child, I think you would say no.

Henry: Right! Of course the woman with the two-month-old should not be able to kill her child.

Steve and volunteer Kim (right) at University of Arizona (February)

Andrea: I totally agree. If the unborn are human beings like the two-month-old, then we should protect the unborn even if they came about through rape, right?

Henry: You made a good point there! That makes sense. And why should the unborn be punished for the wrong that was committed?

Andrea: I agree.

Henry: Abortion should only be legal for the health of the baby and the life of the mother.

I addressed these issues, and by the end of the discussion, Henry responded:

Henry: Wow! Those are good points. This has given me a lot to think about.

Before Henry left for class, he thanked me for the conversation. I could tell that God was working in his life. Henry realized that since the unborn are living human beings, they should be protected even if they may not live very long or if they were conceived through rape.

Our trainers and volunteers often have opportunities to gently challenge pro-choice students and point out the inconsistencies in their views by asking them questions that help them think through the issue themselves. Thank you for your prayers and support that allow us to have conversations with students like Henry.

Masked Conversations

February 2024 Impact Report

When our team conducts campus outreach, we start conversations with people of all different types. What’s pretty common among all of this diversity, though, is the tendency for people to hide behind various kinds of masks. On Halloween every year, these masks are visible. On all other days, the masks are invisible but nonetheless present.

In this Impact Report, JFA trainer Rebekah Dyer tells the story of one conversation that had both the visible type of mask and the invisible type of mask. In the conversation, she modeled an excellent approach each of us can use as Christian ambassadors to build trust in order to help people come out from behind their masks and partner with us in finding truth.

Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Rebekah spoke with another masked man on Halloween at the University of North Texas (UNT) in fall 2023.

On Halloween last year, I was at the University of North Texas, and I noticed a man in a scary, tan-colored mask with no mouth and black eyes. He was looking at our embryology pictures.

I asked him what he thought about abortion. He shrugged and motioned to his mask. An interesting interaction ensued as I asked him questions, and he tried to answer with hand motions. Here’s the gist of the conversation that followed:

At UNT, a banana signed “No, abortion should not be legal.” Seth (hat) is visible talking to another student.

“Wait,” I asked, “can you not talk in the mask?” He nodded. “Is it that tight?” He nodded again. “How long have you been wearing it?” He made a motion with his hands. “You’ve been wearing it for twenty-one hours?” I asked, surprised. With an exasperated sigh he motioned again. “Two and a half hours?” I guessed again. He nodded vigorously. “Wow!” I said. “Well, if you want to chat, I’ll be around.”

“This is gonna look bad, but I’m going to sign,” said the Grim Reaper to JFA trainer Kristina at UNT. Then she proceeded to sign “Yes” on our poll.

I stepped away to make some notes about another conversation I had had that day. A few minutes later the student took off his mask, and we began to have a normal conversation. “Landon” told me he was in the middle on this issue. As I asked him questions, he shared that he thought abortion should be broadly legal so that women who have life-threatening complications during pregnancy have access to abortion. He shared that he had a friend who had been raped and had gotten pregnant at thirteen years old. This friend had also had seven abortions. Landon also told me people should be educated about abortion so that they know that it kills another human being.

As we spoke, I was hearing some conflicting things from Landon, so I asked the following question to help clarify some of the confusion:

Rebekah: What if we could have a law that made elective abortion broadly illegal, but had an exception for cases where the life of the mother is in danger?

Landon: Oh, that’s brilliant!

Rebekah: That’s what the current law is in Texas.

Landon was surprised and told me he agreed with the current law. As our conversation began to wind down he confessed something to me:

Landon: I need to apologize to you. I lied to you earlier. I can talk just fine in this mask. I was worried that you were going to yell at me when I walked up. I wanted to check out the signs, but I didn’t want to talk to anyone.

Rebekah: Thank you for telling me. I forgive you. I can understand why it might feel intimidating to come up to this display if you have that fear.

During our conversation, he shared with me that he was a Christian. Whenever someone tells me he is a Christian, I always ask him what he means by that. Landon answered by referencing the Nicene Creed.

This conversation highlights a few important things. First, if we jump to challenging people the moment we hear something with which we disagree, we can easily talk past them and address a view they don’t hold. In every conversation, it is crucial that we ask good questions and listen in order to understand the other person’s views. Landon went from sounding like he was in the middle on this issue, to sounding very pro-choice, to finally clarifying that he was actually opposed to the vast majority of abortions. If I hadn’t slowed down and asked Landon questions, I could have missed what he was trying to communicate.

Second, many people are unaware of the abortion laws in their own state. There is also a lot of apathy and ignorance surrounding what abortion is and what it does to another human being. When we have conversations about these things we have the opportunity to inform people and help move their hearts toward loving forgotten human beings, especially the unborn.

Third, many people are understandably uncomfortable talking about abortion. They are afraid of being verbally attacked, yelled at, and ridiculed. I understand that fear because I’ve had those experiences, and it affected the way I felt going into some future conversations. I’ve learned that acting against my fear and discomfort is necessary and something I’m called to do as a Christian. God meets us in those places of fear, and He empowers us to engage in the midst of difficult situations. By treating people with kindness and gentleness, we can invite others to engage in the conversation in spite of their fears.

In my experience, most conversations about abortion are not hostile. When people see that I want to have a civil conversation about an important issue, they are open to engaging in a respectful way. I think we can give people a gift on multiple levels. We can give them a good experience in a conversation about a difficult topic by asking questions, listening, and truly understanding them. Then we can help them get closer to the truth by challenging them to stop tolerating the killing of innocent children in the womb.

Flipping Tables in the Courtyard

My team spent three days at Boise State University in August. Although abortion is banned in Idaho, most of the students who voted on our poll were pro-choice, suggesting that the laws are vulnerable to change.

A female student at Boise State University charged towards me and, with all her might, tried to rip the “No” sign off our poll table. Everyone’s attention turned to her. She seemed to have zero shame. I contemplated calling the police but first wanted to give her a chance to redeem herself, if she was willing. Whatever I would say, I needed to avoid adding more fuel to the fire.

Kristina: It looks like you’re very passionate about this issue. Would you be open to sharing why?

Like many students I meet on campus, she was angry that her perceived right to abortion was up for debate. As she spoke, I built rapport by acknowledging any common ground we had and refraining from challenging her accusations. She must have realized that I wasn’t her enemy because she started to cool down.

Changing the subject, she asked:

Student: Are you one of those homophobic people?

Kristina: I do think that marriage is for a man and a woman. If you’re interested, I’d be happy to share why.

Student: Jesus taught love and kindness. I just wish more people were kind to each other.

Kristina: I do, too. Do you think, though, that trying to damage our display exhibited kindness?

Her face flushed with embarrassment.

Student: I am so sorry about that. I just had a “flipping tables in the temple” moment. I was angry, and when I get angry, I can hardly control myself.

Her demeanor continued to soften.

As I asked more questions about her life, I learned that she was raised in the Episcopalian church, her parents were divorced, and her dad had a boyfriend.

Student: Jesus preached against judging people, and he actually thought highly of women. He was even kind to prostitutes.

Kristina: He did treat women well, which was countercultural at the time. In the story of the woman caught in adultery, he challenged the Pharisees who were accusing her by saying, “Let the man without sin cast the first stone.” But do you know what he did afterwards?

Student: No, what did he do?

Kristina: He said to the adulterous woman, “Go, and sin no more.” He taught repentance. So Jesus’ full message is faith in him accompanied by love and repentance. We have to turn from our sin.

Student: What does “sin” mean?

She seemed to know so much, yet so little at the same time, but she was enthusiastic to learn.

I walked her through the story of the fall in the Garden of Eden, how each of us has disobeyed God by violating the moral law, and how Jesus is the only way to freedom from sin. I also shared why marriage is a covenant that can only exist between a man and a woman. While she didn’t agree with my explanation, she didn’t argue with it either.

Kristina: Would it be alright if I prayed with you right now?

Student: Sure!

Click here for a Printable Version including a reflection on this story from Executive Director, Steve Wagner.

We bowed our heads. I thanked God for our conversation and the unique gifts that He gave her. I also asked that her heart would be opened to knowing Jesus and to turning from the sin in her life. Then it was time for her next class.

Student: I learned a lot today, and I really appreciated this conversation. Again, I am so sorry for trying to damage your display.

It was like the woman I met earlier that morning was a new person! We said our goodbyes and parted ways.

Thank you for your prayers and support as I continue in this mission. It’s through experiences like these that I know the Holy Spirit is with my team and moving in the people with whom we speak. God generously gives second chances, and witnessing the character growth of this student was a humbling reminder of the countless redemptive opportunities He continues to offer me (and every one of us!).

Answering the Hard Cases

August 2023 Impact Report

In almost every conversation about abortion, we can expect people to ask about “hard cases” such as rape, incest, and life-threatening pregnancy complications. In this Impact Report, JFA trainer Kristina Massa beautifully illustrates JFA’s framework for addressing these questions. Through the story of a conversation from our April 2023 outreach at Colorado State University (CSU), Kristina describes step by step how she began with relational sensitivity and continued in that mode while also offering intellectually satisfying answers. Thank you for partnering with us so we can train more Christians and pro-life advocates to use this framework. It gives our strong case against elective abortion the best chance of being considered by skeptical listeners.

Steve Wagner, Executive Director

I watched “Brad” have his first “aha” moment within a few minutes of starting our conversation. My team was set up at Colorado State University in the middle of the campus’s main plaza when I found Brad standing by the free speech board. He was staring pensively at the comments. “Do you have any thoughts on abortion?” I asked. He answered that since the unborn are not conscious, they do not have the same rights as born humans. To make sure I understood his view, I asked a few more questions and found common ground with him where I could. Eventually I felt like I had built enough rapport with him to challenge his perspective. Here is the gist of what followed:

Kristina: I agree there are many differences between the unborn and us. There are also many differences between you and me. I think the question we need to answer is whether these differences matter. For example, you have dark skin, I have light skin. You are taller than me, I have longer hair than you. I am older than you, you are probably smarter than me. It seems like in order to demand we should be treated equally, there has to be something the same or equal about us; something that adults and infants have, but animals do not. Since animals are also conscious, it seems like the quality that grounds our equal rights must be more fundamental.

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Kristina (right) talks to students at JFA’s Fort Lewis College outreach event in Durango, Colorado in April 2022.

That was when he had his first “aha” moment.

Brad: We’re all human beings.

Intellectually, he understood the pro-life position. Emotionally, there was still one roadblock hindering him from agreeing with it.

Brad: But what if a woman was raped? My mom was raped and became pregnant with my older sister. Do you think women should have a choice in a situation like that?

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Here’s a close up of the free speech board at the CSU outreach. It’s a concept we’ve been testing recently.

Brad asked me a yes or no question, but I was not going to give him a quick yes or no response. The scenario was personal to him, and I needed to meet him relationally before I could give him my answer.

Kristina: I am so sorry your mom went through that. Rape is one of the most heinous crimes. How is she doing now?

Brad: Yeah, it was really hard on her. Thankfully she was already married to my dad, and he was very supportive of her through it. He told her that he would help her take care of my sister.

Rather than immediately answering his question, I slowed the conversation down by expressing concern for his mother. I focused on meeting what we at JFA call “the relational challenge.” This answers the question, “What about the woman? Do pro-life people think the lives of women who have been raped matter?” After all, the woman we were discussing was not an abstract hypothetical character. For Brad, she was his mother.

Still, Brad wanted to know my answer to “the intellectual challenge:” Is abortion justified if the woman was raped? Should it be legal? To answer this, I used the dialogue tool Trot Out the Toddler. It went something like this:

Kristina: Can I share a scenario with you that’s related to your question?

Brad: Sure.

Kristina: Imagine a woman is raped, becomes pregnant, and gives birth to her baby. She’s hurting, and even looking at her baby overwhelms her with fear and pain because her child’s existence reminds her of her attack. This is a terrible and tragic scenario no one should ever have to face. But Brad, I am guessing you and I will agree on a few things about this situation: We both want this woman to heal. We also want her to have choices to go about her healing. But those choices are not unlimited. If she thought ending her infant’s life would be the most helpful way to heal her trauma, we would not let her go through with it. Would you say you share that conviction as well?

Brad: Yes, she cannot kill her baby. That’s a human being.

Kristina: I agree with you, and that is the significant thing. When we say she cannot kill her newborn, we are not saying, “I don’t care about your rape. I don’t care about your trauma. I don’t care about your child.” What we are saying is, “I care so much about you, and I want you to have choices. I just want you to have choices that will help both of you and don’t add violence to an already violent situation.” Since the unborn have a human nature like the infant in this circumstance, do you think it could make sense to protect the unborn in the same way we protect infants who were conceived in rape?

Brad paused to reflect. And then I watched him have his second “aha” moment.

Brad’s comment on the free speech board

Brad: I think you are right. Unborn human beings have the same basic rights we do, so they should be protected, too.

Then he walked back to the free speech board to write the following comment: “It comes down to how we value human life. As humans, we create criteria for what qualifies as a “human.” That is how I perceive the pinpoint of this argument. Perhaps if we come to an agreement for what is truly human, we could apply that criteria for everyone...”

Thank you for helping me make the abortion of all children – regardless of the circumstances that created them – unthinkable, one person at a time. In case no one has told you recently, your life matters, too!

A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words

June 2023 Impact Report

In this Impact Report, JFA trainer Kaitlyn Donihue illustrates the approach we train all pro-life advocates to take during one-to-one conversations about abortion: when possible, show images of abortion, and do this with a warning and the consent of the person with whom you’re speaking. We need to change a massive number of minds in order to cause the culture to become completely intolerant of elective abortion, but we don’t think a strategy that treats graphic abortion images as always necessary or always sufficient will accomplish this. Since our culture has trained all of us to be highly visual in our way of learning and thinking about the world, though, images are certainly sometimes necessary for changing certain minds. Indeed, sometimes seeing an image appears to be the key element helping a person to change. -Steve Wagner, Executive Director

There is a debate among pro-life advocates about the proper use of graphic abortion images. Some pro-life people find them persuasive and display them publicly. Other pro-life people avoid using them all together.

At Justice For All, we sometimes publicly display graphic abortion images at our outreach events, and sometimes we do not. Most importantly, though, we remind pro-life advocates of common ground we all share on this topic: Whatever your views might be about graphic images of abortion in public, can’t we all agree that in a one-on-one conversation, when you warn and get the consent of the person with whom you are speaking, showing an image of what abortion looks like can be helpful and appropriate?

The reality is that sometimes an image of what abortion looks like is the only thing that can cut through the rhetoric and clarify what abortion actually does. This was the case at Texas State University in November.

I was standing by the Free Speech Board greeting students and asking them if they had time to share their thoughts about abortion. A young man named “Ben” stopped to talk. I spent time getting to know his perspective and found common ground with his views. He was really concerned about people’s rights to make choices. After a few minutes, I began to gently challenge him. Here is how the rest of our conversation went:

Kaitlyn: I definitely agree with you that choice is really important. As a woman, I am thankful to live in a country where I have rights and the freedom to make choices. There are many countries where I, as a woman, would not have rights. This is going to sound strange, but I’m also glad that I don’t have some rights. For example, I don’t have the right to harm or kill someone on this campus and that is because my rights end where your rights begin. So with the issue of abortion, we have to ask, “Is the unborn a human being?” If the unborn isn’t a human being, then of course women should have the right to abortion; but if the unborn is a human being, then it seems like the woman’s rights should end where the unborn human being’s rights begin. What do you think about that question? Do you think the unborn is a human being?

Ben: I have never really thought about that before. I guess I don’t really know.

Kaitlyn: Do you mind if I share my understanding of what we know from the study of biology?

Ben: Sure.

Kaitlyn: If the unborn is growing, isn’t it alive?

Ben: Yeah, I guess it must be alive.

Kaitlyn: I agree with you there. If the unborn has human parents, do you think that means that the unborn are human?

Ben: Yes, I guess they would have to be.

Kaitlyn: If the unborn is living and human, then shouldn’t we protect them?

Ben: I just think choice is really important. Women should have the right to choose to do whatever they want.

Kaitlyn: I definitely agree that choice is really important, so we are on the same page there. Let’s imagine for a moment that we have two buckets. One bucket is for all of the choices that people should be allowed to make. We should all be allowed to decide what kind of ice cream we like, and what college we attend, etc. The other bucket is for the choices we shouldn’t be allowed to make. For example, we shouldn’t be allowed to choose to kill someone, or to rape someone, or to steal from someone. Which bucket do you think abortion belongs in? [See “Two Buckets” for more on this strategy.]

Ben: The first bucket.

Kaitlyn: Do you think the unborn are human beings?

Ben: Yes.

Kaitlyn: I agree with you. Do you think abortion kills those human beings?

Ben: Well, maybe abortion belongs in the second bucket, but I still think women should have the right to choose to do what they want.

Kaitlyn: Ben, have you ever seen pictures of what abortion looks like?

Ben: No.

Kaitlyn: Would you be willing to see some pictures of what abortion looks like? They are very graphic and hard to look at.

Ben: Sure.

Kaitlyn: These are pictures of what abortion looks like.

You can use JFA’s Invitation to Dialogue Brochure to show pictures with sensitivity just as Kaitlyn did. Click here to get a digital version for your phone (with hyperlinks) and to request the paper version of the brochure.

Ben got very quiet as he stared at the graphic images of abortion in our brochure (seven weeks to twelve weeks from fertilization). We stood together in silence for a minute. Finally I asked him,

Kaitlyn: Ben, do you think that a woman should be allowed to make a choice that looks like this?

Ben: No. This should not be legal.

Ben’s response surprised me. Students don’t often shift their perspective right in front of us this way. Many are not impacted by the images at all, but for others, the images help them process what abortion actually does to a human being. As Ben demonstrated, there is power in not just thinking abstractly about facts and arguments but also in seeing the truth about abortion.

Thinking about the Unborn Child for the First Time

Stacey walked up to our outreach signs looking curious. We were standing on a busy walkway at Palomar College (CA) in December. I asked a few questions about her thoughts on abortion, and she clarified that she thought abortion should be legal until birth. Here’s my recollection of the rest of the conversation:

Steve: Do you believe abortion should be legal because you believe a woman has a right to her body?

Stacey: Yes. A woman’s right to her body is really important to me.

Steve: I agree that a woman has a right to her body, generally speaking, and I agree that’s really important. Women’s bodily rights have been trampled on and continue to be trampled on throughout the world with practices like slavery, rape, and domestic violence. I think those things are horrific and wrong.

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Palomar College Outreach in December 2022: Steve (center, black shirt) and other JFA staff members interact with students.

Stacey: I agree.

Steve: Do you agree with me that a woman’s bodily rights are not simply created or determined by the state? Instead, they’re fundamental. They’re like other human rights. If the state didn’t protect those rights, the state would be wrong.

Stacey: Yes, that’s true.

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Pages 4-5 of JFA’s Invitation to Dialogue Brochure.

Steve: I have some pictures over here that might be helpful to our conversation. [I showed her the signs that show pages four and five of the Invitation to Dialogue Brochure.] Look at this young woman pictured here. Can we agree that she has bodily rights that the state should respect?

Stacey: I agree with that.

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JFA’s setup at the National Mall on April 26-27 included the signs Steve referred to in his conversation with Stacey.

Steve: Now, what about this toddler? I assume we would agree he shouldn’t be killed. Can we agree he has bodily rights that are fundamental?

Stacey: Yes.

Steve: So the woman and the toddler have the same bodily rights. And those rights are fundamental, so the situation would have to reach a really high bar to justify limiting something so important as a person’s bodily rights. Perhaps the only legitimate way the state could limit those rights is if these people were using their bodies to take away someone else’s bodily rights.

Stacey: That’s a good point.

Steve: Does it make sense to you that if their rights are fundamental, they had them from the moment they began to exist? When did this toddler begin to exist?

Stacey: That makes sense, but I guess I’m not sure. What do you think?

Steve: Well, from fertilization [pointing at image on sign], when the sperm and the egg came together, both ceased to exist, and a new organism came into existence. All that’s been added from then until the toddler stage is food. If we have something as important as fundamental human rights now, I don’t think we could gain those rights by eating. So, I think the woman and the toddler began to exist at fertilization, and that’s also when they gained their fundamental right to their bodies. But that would mean that the embryo has a fundamental right to his body just like the toddler and the woman.

Our conversation continued for ten minutes or so. (Indeed, Stacey contributed much more detailed responses than what my memory has allowed me to include here.) We discussed how the embryo is very different from us (in looks and functions) but is also the same kind of being that we are—a being with the same human nature we have. If this is true, the woman’s fundamental right to her body would not include the right to abortion, because then abortion would be killing a human being with the same bodily rights.

As Stacey got ready to move on from the conversation, she eagerly accepted a copy of the Invitation to Dialogue Brochure that included the same pictures we had been discussing. What she said in parting really surprised me:

Stacey: I never thought about the fetus as a separate person—that it has its own rights we would be taking away. I’ll have to think about that!

At the beginning of this conversation, Stacey sounded completely pro-choice, and frankly, I think I suspected she wouldn’t have much interest in an alternative opinion. She showed the exact opposite throughout our conversation. It’s a lesson I’ve learned again and again: Don’t make assumptions from appearances.

As I found common ground with Stacey repeatedly about bodily rights, showing relational sensitivity to the emotionally heavy topic of what a woman can do with her body, I think she became open to my perspective about the unborn child. That’s the sequence we teach any chance we can: Be relational…then be intellectual. That approach helped Stacey to consider the possibility there was a whole other person involved in the abortion question, and she showed genuine interest in thinking further about that.

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Jan. 2025 Update: Note that this letter is the second of a series of three letters Steve wrote from February 2023 until March 2024 - letters focused on conversations skills we teach volunteers that help them get started having conversations and encourage them to stay active. Here are links to the series, including this letter, so you can see how it fits in the flow of thought:

1. “Be a Playmaker” (Feb. 2023): on the importance of setting the right expectations for results and seeing your advocacy as one piece of a bigger puzzle

2. “Thinking about the Unborn Child for the First Time” (this letter, May 2023): on being relational then intellectual

   • “Be Relational…then Be Intellectual” (Sept. 2023): on how this approach applies to every topic in every conversation

3. “Only Two Questions?” (March 2024): on the two clarification questions that can help you make an impact in any conversation

See the Letters in this Series

The Profound Impact of Asking Questions

Tony, a student at Fort Lewis College in Durango, Colorado, approached our poll table which displayed the

following question: “Should abortion remain legal?” On both sides of the table there were signs that read, “Yes,”

and “No” giving students opportunities to express their views.

Tony immediately started the conversation by announcing, “I don’t think the unborn is a human being, and I don’t think we will ever know if the unborn is a human being.”

Andrea at UTSA Feb. 2022

I inquired: “If I share with you my understanding of the basic biology, would that be helpful?” “Yes,” he responded. “I would like that!”

He seemed very open-minded. I prayed for the Lord to guide our conversation. Here is how it went.

Andrea: If the unborn is growing, would you say that it’s alive?

Tony: Yes.

Andrea: If the unborn has human parents, isn’t a human?

Tony: Of course.

Andrea: Generally, living things produce after their own kind. Dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, so it would make sense to conclude that humans produce human offspring. So, if the unborn is a living human being like a 2-year-old or like you and me, then would you agree that we should protect the unborn?

Tony: Yes. I see what you are saying.

Andrea: Do you think we as human beings deserve equal rights at least in the basic right to life?

Tony: Of course.

Andrea: I agree. If you look around at everyone here on campus, I believe that each student deserves equal rights, at least in the basic right to life. There are many differences among each student: height, hair color, intellect, abilities, and so forth. Even with these differences there is something that is the same about us, something that gives us that equal right. So, let me ask you: what do you think is the thing that is the same about us?

Tony: It’s that we are human.

Andrea: Exactly! Since we just discussed the fact that the unborn are living human beings, would you agree that we should extend those rights to the unborn at least in the basic right to life?”

Tony: [enthusiastically] Yes! You would have to. I can understand both sides of the issue. My grandma became pregnant with my mom at the age of seventeen. I am glad my grandma had my mom even at a young age. I am thankful she did not decide to get an abortion. Otherwise, I would not be here. However, I grew up very pro-choice. My mom worked for an abortion clinic.

Wow! I knew that if Tony grasped that the unborn is a human being, he would have to come to terms with the fact that his mom had been participating in killing innocent human lives. That would be a hard pill to swallow.

Later in the conversation I asked Tony if he would be willing to look at images of an abortion, since he had never seen them before. He agreed. As he looked at the pictures, I could tell by his demeanor that he was impacted by them. I also shared with him how a third trimester abortion is performed. It was then he realized the travesty of what takes place in an abortion.

After giving him a minute to look at the images, I asked, “Tony, would you say that abortion is a medical procedure, or is abortion taking a life?”

Tony looked at me and responded, “I would have to say that abortion is taking a life.”

Our conversation continued for another thirty minutes. After we discussed abortion, we launched into a conversation about our spiritual beliefs. Tony shared with me what he believed, and then I had the opportunity to talk extensively about the gospel. I shared with him that our sin is what separates us from God. God is holy, and He cannot let sin into heaven. Since no one is perfect, we will all be guilty before God. However, God in His mercy sent His Son to take the punishment for our sins by dying on a cross. He listened intently as I continued to share the Good News with him. Tony was quite receptive to the gospel, and I could tell that he realized his need for a Savior.

I then thanked Tony for taking the time to discuss these two heavy topics. He replied, “Oh, I like having deep conversations. I enjoyed this discussion. I will definitely be thinking about our conversation and everything that we talked about!”

I left the conversation thanking the Lord for the opportunity to talk to Tony. It is important to ask questions not only to understand the other person’s view, but also to gently challenge their perspective. There is power in asking questions. They can be a means by which we plant seeds of truth.

As we near the end of the year, I want to thank each of you who have contributed to my work with JFA over this past year. Your prayers and support have been such a huge blessing in making it possible to reach people like Tony. I am excited to continue to serve the Lord with JFA.

No Regrets

Impact Report - October 2022

For most people, talking about moral or spiritual matters with other people is daunting when we have no knowledge of how they might respond. But what about when people have shown us that their views definitely conflict with ours? Even worse, what if someone has demonstrated he or she is close-minded or has even made mocking comments about the pro-life position or Christianity or people who believe in Jesus? We don’t want to “cast our pearls before swine” so should we step into the conversation even if we have reasons to believe it won’t be fruitful? In this Impact Report, JFA dialogue artist Andrea Thenhaus describes a recent conversation that illustrates why our answer to this question is usually “Yes!” She learned that we can have misconceptions about people and that conversations can go far better than we predicted. -Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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Towards the end of the second day of our Texas State University outreach this month, a group of four people started looking at the free speech board. I stood nearby for a few minutes listening. They were making inappropriate and crass remarks about the comments they were reading.

Andrea (right) interacts with a student at Fort Lewis College in Durango, CO in April 2022.

At first, I did not want to talk with these students. What if they decided to direct their rude comments toward me? I had several excellent conversations that day, and I did not want to end on a discouraging note.

Then I decided I wanted to finish the day having no regrets. If they did not want to engage, or if the conversation did not go well, at least I would know I had done my part by trying to dialogue with them.

I asked them if they had any thoughts on the issue of abortion. They started by saying that they are pro-choice and then began sharing with me why they thought abortion should be legal. Christy, a member of the Students For Life club on campus, asked if she could join the conversation. Our conversation went something like this:

Sophia: I have seen so much suffering in this world. I just want to prevent kids from having to experience suffering. I think abortion should be legal for that reason. It would be more compassionate to end the life of the unborn when they are not conscious or aware of what is going on.

Jessica: There are many children suffering in foster care. We need to change the foster care system if abortion is going to be illegal.

Christy: Can I ask you a question? Imagine that there is a group of kids in the foster care system. Would it be okay to kill them to help relieve the suffering they are experiencing?

They agreed that would not be right, but then they noted differences between these kids and the unborn:

Jessica: At that point they are already in this world.

Sophia: The unborn is different, and I just want to prevent the child from experiencing pain and suffering.

Jessica: I have two siblings who have been in the foster care system. It was very hard on them.

In that moment, I sensed that they had a story to share. I realized that I needed to just listen.

Sophia: I have had a hard life. Many people in my life have died. Yesterday, my friend told me that her mom recently passed away after she had been missing. I also attended a school where we were frequently on lockdowns due to shootings. At first it was terrifying to attend school every day knowing that I might get shot. I eventually stopped fearing death and accepted that I could die. As the conversation continued, both of these young women expressed that they don’t have hope.

Andrea: Thank you for sharing. Everyone has a story, and it is important to listen to one another. I want people to know that I care about them. You never know what someone is going through or has gone through in their life.

Sophia: I can tell that you care.

She started to tear up, and I reaffirmed my concern for her. After a few minutes, it seemed helpful to note why we were on campus and how that related to listening to individual stories.

Andrea: JFA is a pro-life organization. The heart behind our outreach is to create healthy and productive dialogue about abortion. That means it’s important to hear where each person is coming from.

Sophia: I agree that it is important to talk about this issue. We can bring both sides to the table and listen to each other.

Andrea: This is the way I look at it: If the unborn are living human beings like you and me, then abortion is taking a life. I think we need to protect the unborn. If the unborn are not human beings, then it does not matter if someone gets an abortion. You mentioned earlier that abortion is a choice. I think choice is good as long as it does not harm another human being. This is why I am pro-life, but I think that pro-life should not end at birth.

They looked at each other and then Sophia exclaimed,

Sophia: I can’t believe you just said that! You are the first person I have heard say that pro-life should not end at birth. Wow! This has been a groundbreaking conversation.

As we continued talking, my heart ached for them and their lack of hope. I felt prompted to share the gospel because I know that true hope is only found in Jesus Christ. I asked a question to begin: “What gives you hope?”

We then launched into a conversation in which I was able to share in detail what Christ has done for us. Finally I said, “I share all this with you because I care about you. There is not much hope in this world, but I find my hope in Jesus. I am confident that one day I’ll go to heaven, and that gives me hope!”

Throughout our conversation, and especially during our discussion of spiritual things, Sophia and Jessica were exceptionally receptive and appreciative.

As the conversation came to a close, I thanked them for taking the time to talk. They replied, “No. Thank you. We greatly appreciated this conversation and all that you shared. So thank you!”

I thank God for allowing me to see a window into His work in their hearts. I did leave this conversation with no regrets, and I was grateful for their remarkable shift in attitude. I am reminded that not all our interactions will go like this one. Often, we do not get to see the fruit of our labor. No matter the outcome, we can focus on being faithful to plant seeds and let God do the rest. I pray that you take the opportunities God gives you in the coming weeks so you also can say, “I have no regrets” and give thanks to Him for whatever results He brings.

Attitude Can Make or Break the Conversation

Recently, veteran JFA trainer Rebecca Hotovy found an unsent email in her drafts folder. It contained a nearly complete newsletter detailing a conversation from years back. I was so taken with it, I wanted to share it with you. (Rebecca still coaches other JFA speakers part-time during brief breaks from her full-time job as mom to two precious boys.)

We know this story definitely happened at the University of Oklahoma, and we think it happened around 2015. Whatever the date, the story beautifully illustrates the power of JFA’s dialogue approach, the power of a few carefully crafted questions asked with an open heart, and the way in which our attitude has the power to make or break a conversation. - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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Impact Report, June 2022

Rebecca Hotovy, JFA Trainer Certification Coach and Trainer Emeritus

 Several years ago at the University of Oklahoma (OU), as I stood next to the large exhibit, a young man approached me. I’ll call him Chris. Confident that abortion was a woman’s right, Chris started to explain why he felt abortion should remain legal. Several feet from me stood another man, likely twenty to thirty years older than Chris. Although this older man was not a volunteer with Justice For All, he held a pro-life view. He was close enough to hear my conversation with Chris, and as the conversation continued, he listened in.

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Rebecca (center) interacts with an OU student in 2015 near a small version of the JFA Exhibit.

In the first few minutes of that discussion, I took time to figure out the reasoning behind Chris’s belief that abortion should remain legal. Without first understanding why Chris held his view or how he came to the conclusion that abortion should remain legal, I knew I wouldn’t be able help him see errors in his reasoning. I was also aware that blatantly pointing out any errors may upset him enough that he would end the conversation. If he didn’t end the conversation but he stayed and continued talking, it would likely make him put up barriers of self-defense that would prevent him from wanting to listen to the ideas being presented, even if he was physically present and talking. Sadly, I’ve seen this happen many times – two people begin to dialogue about a controversial subject, quickly start defending their own positions, and turn a conversation into two monologues because they feel offended. If they feel offended for whatever reason, they may hear words coming from the other person’s mouth, but they don’t listen to the meaning of the message of those words.

In my conversation with Chris, over time it became clear that he did not believe the unborn was biologically human. When I felt I had built a good rapport with him, I allowed our conversation to take a turn. I started asking questions not just to discover his reasoning in defense of legal abortion but also to challenge that reasoning. At this point in the conversation I knew he would welcome the challenge because he could see that I didn’t desire to push my agenda down his throat. The challenge questions I asked were exactly the ones we train participants to ask when they attend the Abortion: From Debate to Dialogue seminar. I said something like:

Rebecca: Chris, do you mean that you don’t believe the unborn is biologically a human being or that the unborn isn’t a human being that deserves the same rights as you and I do?

Chris: Oh, it’s not biologically a human being at all. It’s just a clump of cells in those early stages.

Rebecca: If I could offer evidence for why the unborn is a human being, would you mind?

Chris: Sure. Go ahead.

Rebecca: If the unborn is growing, isn’t it alive?

Chris: [pausing and then slowly nodding his head] Yeah, sure I can agree with that.

Rebecca: If the unborn has human parents, isn’t it human?

Chris: [pausing and pondering the question with a slight grin on his face] Yes.

It was his answer to my third question, though, that threw me for a loop.

Rebecca: And living human beings, like you and me, are valuable, aren’t they?

Chris: Oh my gosh. Yes.

There was another moment of silence as he continued to ponder the questions I had just asked that laid out a defense for the humanity of the unborn. We stood in silence for a while longer. Then he said something like:

Chris: Wow, okay, so I need to think through this more.

This was so unexpected to me because most students I talk to do not agree with each of these questions. They have all sorts of creative ideas to share, such as “Well, fire grows, and it’s not alive” or “Yeah, well a clump of cells might be alive and have human DNA, but that doesn’t mean it is a human being...Are tumors human beings?” or “Sperm are alive and have human DNA. Are all sperm valuable, too?”

Chris didn’t have any retorts like these. He simply agreed that the unborn was a human being.

Just as I thought the conversation was going really well, it took a turn for the worse. The pro-life man who had been listening in stepped close enough to us to join the conversation, turned to Chris, and snootily remarked, “She got ya! Didn’t she‽”

My heart dropped to my stomach. I had taken such care not to make Chris feel like I was attacking his position and to make him feel comfortable sharing his thoughts with me, and in less than three seconds someone who claimed to be pro-life obliterated all my efforts. Chris was as shocked as I was. His face showed it. He also became really nervous and started stumbling over his words.

One would think that I would easily become frustrated with people who hold beliefs against the dignity and sanctity of human life, but in this instance I became frustrated instead with this person who was like-minded to me in certain ways but didn’t realize the importance of treating the human standing in front of us with respect. Fortunately, I was able to jump back into the conversation, regain a good rapport with Chris, direct the conversation away from the “got ya” remark, and help him feel less nervous.

In hindsight, I now take another step back and realize that the art of learning to dialogue is a journey for everyone – the pro-life advocate and the pro-choice advocate alike. Prior to my training and work with Justice For All, if I had been that pro-life person standing there listening in on the conversation, I may have made a similar remark. Early on I didn’t understand that the way I shared the truth about the unborn could actually affect whether that truth helped pro-choice advocates change their minds. Thank you, Justice For All, for your gift of teaching me the beauty of dialoguing in love!

Note: Yes, that’s an intentional interrobang in the fourth from the last paragraph. Learn more about this controversial punctuation mark through this engaging podcast episode from 99 Percent Invisible.